The Art of Writing and Self-Discovery With Michael Caudo

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (00:01)
Welcome back Joining me today is Michael Caldo, author of the Nick Denobli Art Heist Crime Thriller series that includes Return of the Prodigal, Revenge of the Prodigal, and most recently redemption of the Prodigal. And Michael is going to speak with me today about writing and life. He is, as I said, an author. He is also an attorney.

and most importantly he is my very good friend. Michael, welcome.

Michael Caudo (00:34)
Hey Meg, thanks for having me. And wow, th that was a mouthful. Thanks for getting that all right. The the Prodigal Trilogy. thank you. Thank you for being a

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (00:43)
Prodigal trilogy.

Michael Caudo (00:45)
fan and a friend. so yeah, I've been looking forward to this so much. And hope I didn't inundate you with some late, late, late materials I may have sent over to you. But you know how that goes being an attorney.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (00:56)
No, no, it's great. I can't wait to dig into it.

I I'm gonna I'm gonna take a lot of the writing tips from you.

Michael Caudo (01:03)
Okay. If that helps, I give much better advice than I take. So okay.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (01:08)
Well,

we've been we have been talking about getting together uh for quite some time. I have been uh a fan of the Prodigal series since the first one, Return, was released several years ago. Um you and I have known each other, I'll just say, since kind of back in the day, in my days in Philadelphia, uh when I was assistant district attorney and you were doing some defense work. I think that's when we first met.

Michael Caudo (01:31)
Yes.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (01:32)
And then our paths fortuitously crossed again.

Michael Caudo (01:36)
How about that?

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (01:37)
when I was in private

practice and we we had a couple cases that we worked on together and I think that's when we really started uh speaking about what I know is both of our passions, which is writing.

Michael Caudo (01:49)
Yes. yes, we did start so and and I was so, you know, happy to hear about your background and and your interest in in well th the literary life. That's what I refer

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (02:00)
Right.

Michael Caudo (02:00)
to it as.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (02:02)
Yeah, and and you know, I'm glad you say it like that, the literary life, because that's really what I would like to speak to you about today. Um, you know, how you got started writing, how how you know that writing process. And I I th this is something I could talk about all day long. So why don't we why don't we start with your story? You know, I you were an English major.

at Temple went on and have a very sex successful law practice. But talk to me about when you started writing and why and and what it really means to you.

Michael Caudo (02:42)
Thank you. Yeah, I would love to. So, I mean let let me address it this way, and it doesn't have to be writing. I'd like you and anyone listening to this, think back to s one of your first loves. You know, one of the first things that you were so interested in uh as a as a young person, even if it was something that at the time uh made you uh feel uh or look quote unquote weird.

Okay. and I I stress that. I stress that for a reason. oddly enough, those things that you know made us f that we may have abandoned, that maybe f made us feel a little different and a little uncomfortable that we had to adjust to fit in, or or or at least we thought so, or to become successful. Uh it just what writing has done for me has allowed me to reach back.

and get in touch well I guess with my you know with my inner weirdness but but go back to the things to m to one of my purest and truest loves which was the love of reading, the love of the written word, the love of literature, the hope that one day uh I would be able to put pen to paper and really share my thoughts. And and so many people feel that way.

And and they don't achieve it not because of a lack of skill, but I think because of uh in in my c I'll speak to my case, an abundance of self-doubt, a little bit of shame, a little bit of imposter syndrome, worrying too much about what other people are going to think. I'm a lawyer. Am I really a writer? What are people people are gonna think I'm crazy? I don't know what I'm doing. But the reality is whether it is writing or

the visual arts. Or it doesn't even have to be art. Whatever that love was, I would if if no if we get nothing else out of this chat, I I hope I reach one person and that that person finds some inspiration from this. So the Pradical series, it's been over five years since book one came out.

That was such a a a a a dream and something that was so out of reach and I never intended to write a trilogy. and yet here we are and I'm done with the three books and uh I'm writing a fourth. But the most important thing is, you know, not book sales, but the persons who reached out to me who were truly, truly touched, who would quote back to me a passage and tell me how it made them feel.

I sent some quotes over to you. I imagine maybe you may, you know, mention some of them to me. But

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (05:33)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Caudo (05:34)
but truly that that's the that's the true for me, that's the goal of writing is to connect to another human being. That that written page, somebody I've never met. Think of the books that you read that that moved you so much, that changed your life, written hundreds of years ago and and and on other on other continents. And that person can feel like your brother or your sister.

And they're going through the same things that you're going through. And it just has so much to say about the human condition. well, I said a little more than I thought I was gonna say.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (06:03)
Yeah, no, no.

I mean and what what I hear is, you know, we we all have this, I think, inner quest to find the meaning of life, right? To find our passion in life. I talk a lot about that, and that's something that I think a lot about. And, you know, w without you know, without getting to the I was gonna bring this up at the end, but I'm gonna bring it up now. You know, you you gave me a few quotes, one of which was Walt Whitman's quote.

you know, we we don't we don't read and write poetry because it's cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race and the human race is filled with passion. So medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for. Um

Michael Caudo (06:55)
That's that's a

beautiful quote. And I'm so glad you segued to that. a and to that point. None of this means, disregard what it is that you do i i in your career and that doesn't mean anything and just throw caution to the wind and and live a literary or or artistic life. The you can marry the two and I dare say you could find something poetic in in your in your day to day uh

career. and I would dare say that writing the books has made me a perhaps a better lawyer, a better advocate, certainly a more empathetic person and a better listener. a good deal of writing is observing and a good deal of good advocacy is listening and observing and and making note of the strength

the strengths of your adversary's position. If if if you you know this so well, Meg, that that if you're ignorant to that, I mean you you need to acknowledge the the the strengths of of your your adversary. and this goes to the notion of observing, of listening carefully. So there is definitely crossover and bleed over uh

But yeah, they're all noble pursuits. We need medicine, we need law. but, you know, think about think about what really, at least for me, brings lasting joy and peace. And it's almost always something from the world and nature around us or something beautiful that someone else said or sang or wrote or painted.

Or just in day to day life mentioned to me some a a a really nice conversation that I had with someone that left me leaving that conversation and and feeling restored. And and I would I would dare say that's that's the beauty that's all around us. it's it's the miracles that it's around us every day. Um I and you have another quote of mine, you could Albert Einstein was quoted as saying there's

basically two ways to go through life. And this is a man of science and of math. That there are no such thing as miracles or look around. Everything is a miracle. Every single thing. It's all in the way that you take it in and perceive it. And I think that's good advice for writing. I think it's good advice for law. I think it's good advice for life.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (09:26)
Yeah, and you said a couple of things that I want to touch upon. First, I think that probably anyone who ever has an inkling of of writing thinks, well, what an uphill battle, right? You know, to get a to get an agent, to get a book published. you know, they wanna jump to that. You know, they wanna, you know, have a best it's never gonna be a bestseller kind of thing. But I think what we are talking about is and writing is a very solitary.

art. but what we're talking about is is art for art's sake, right? Getting those words down. Um, and we're talking about fiction, right? So I wanna I wanted to ask you, and and you gave me a few quotes on this, which is interesting to me because I struggle sometimes with you know fiction versus nonfiction, uh historical fiction.

Yeah, etc. What genre to how how to get my thoughts out and what genre to choose. Um you you've chosen fiction and we're we're talking today about writing fiction. the Albert Camus Camas? Alber

Michael Caudo (10:38)
Camo.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (10:40)
Camus. See, that's why I asked. Albert Camus

Michael Caudo (10:42)
That's okay.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (10:43)
quote, fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth. and then a Mark Twain quote.

Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't. have you always written fiction?

Michael Caudo (11:01)
I have always written f fiction other than writing for my for my work. Uh in

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (11:07)
Right, nice.

Michael Caudo (11:08)
in my case it it f it takes the shackles off. It allows me to explore things assuming that all writing is in s at least in some respect autobiographical. Okay, it doesn't have to be about you. I mean you could be writing about aliens and you know, space marines, but there there's a piece of you

in in all of these characters. And it's the human condition as you see it. a lot of at least my writing, uh you know, you you explore things about yourself that perhaps you didn't realize you were exploring. And you don't realize it while you're writing it. Because you're putting word onto page and I would suggest not to worry about look, it's you're writing no one ever has to see this.

It it could it's y you can't edit something that doesn't exist. So just get it down on a page. If you have some type of urge to write, get a couple words down. It could be horrible. Who cares? Get get that you

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (12:09)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (12:10)
you'd be surprised that I at at what comes out. I again I had that other quote, it's like driving a car at night. You only need to see as far as the headlights go, but you could make the whole trip. You could d drive cross country that way. You never realize where you were going to

you know, going to end up. so i in in terms of fiction, uh I believe, you know, for me it has allowed me to explore uh I I wanna I'll get a little heavy with you. It's allowed and I I I learned this about myself last night I wasn't fully realized about this, but I think sometimes you do some writing, it's a form of reparenting.

You know, I write a lot about relationships, especially between fathers and sons, about people who make a family where they find it. And uh th the brothers, the sisters, the fathers and sons and the uncles and the nephews, they aren't necessarily blood related, but they they've created a family for themselves. I I have arising out of Yeah.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (13:13)
I mean that resonates

in in that resonates in the in the trilogy, for sure. Did

Michael Caudo (13:20)
Yeah, that's

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (13:21)
you did you start out with that theme in mind? Was that the goal? Or did that just did you notice that happening as you were writing?

Michael Caudo (13:28)
I I noticed it happening after I finished a and and I went back and and read it. That's yeah. It was uh

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (13:32)
Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Caudo (13:36)
you know, it it it bled through imperceptibly, at least at the time that I was writing it. But I guess those were the feelings I had, which by the way, you know, when you finish something like that, it's very easy to become overcome with emotion and I was. so

the characters that I I write about when people ask me, Well what's the book about? Well it's about an art heist and it's a thriller and it's about a r a a real a real real life theft from the Isabel Gardner Museum. And it is all those things. but i it it is

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (14:10)
But that's

the surface level. There's this totally deeper meaning. And and that's what I wanted to kind of dig into um

Michael Caudo (14:17)
God.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (14:17)
a little bit. And I I wanna just note for our listeners the quote that you mentioned a minute or so ago. Writing a book is like driving a car at night. You can only see as far as your headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way. E. L Doctor O.

Michael Caudo (14:33)
Well

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (14:33)
E. L Doctor.

Michael Caudo (14:34)
think about that in terms of your life as well. Th think about what what you, me, anyone, what has brought us where we are. Is it because we were so made such beautiful plans and they all worked out precisely as we mapped them out to be? Of course not. It was a beautiful journey and sometimes a painful journey. And when you look back at it, you know, some of that suffering and that pain

that's what caused us to divert and to discover something different and perhaps greater. And I would suggest to you that writing can be like that too. That if you find yourself in an impasse and you're at a a place where it's a little uncomfortable and maybe you feel that you're going to write something that's a little too revealing or it it pains you a little too much to write, that's what you should be writing about. Don't don't stop.

That you're on to something.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (15:28)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Caudo (15:29)
Again, nobody's gonna see it. You wanna edit it out later? That's fine. But get that out of you. so yeah, I would suggest that that there's this notion, Meg, of an elegant universe, that there is uh a beauty in this journey and a beauty that we see replicated in nature and in the universe, in the galaxy.

And those same things resonate inside of us. Uh and when you're telling a story, uh it's it's a lot like the the way your life went. Your your life may have have gone up until that point. so I given you that other quote that if there's no surprise in the writer, there's no surprise in the reader. If there's no tears in the writer, there's no tears in the reader. Allow your characters to do things that

until you write it, you're like, Huh, I didn't see that coming and here you are writing it and your characters are doing things that you didn't anticipate them doing. And I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (16:35)
Yeah, well I

like the Michael Caldo quotes you gave me, turning your pain into art.

Michael Caudo (16:40)
Yeah yeah, yeah. People have asked me a lot about that. and and and what what I meant by that. so I think I'm touching on it, that there are times where you may be writing something, you may be touching a nerve internally, and you know, perhaps revealing something about yourself. That that's a very scary proposition. You're gonna put this out into the world. People are gonna read this and perhaps judge you. And that's okay as far my my as far as I'm concerned.

That's perfectly fine. Please judge away. because if it helps one person, when I these aren't self help books, but I I dare say that it's resonated with a few people. And I've really had people pull me on the side who were who were deeply, deeply touched, and and cried and shared with me uh th about portions of of the books that brought them to tears. I I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (17:30)
Right. And

that I there's a real there's a real skill there in crafting a story that is right surface level interesting. And I I will say, like I loved reading um these books in in large part because I like the way you use a real occurrence, right? The Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum art heist that happened in nineteen ninety in Boston and how you tie that in to a real life place.

namely Philadelphia, which I I lived in Philadelphia for a a a long period of time and I I loved reading about it. I loved the grittiness of it. You you are obviously a South Philly guy. And so you you the accuracy of the interplay between the characters. I loved I love the way, you know, you are an R B fan, clearly, right? And I love the way you include

that. You know, you include the um

the different drinks that Nick would drink. And I love all that. And I I love how, you know, I know you also spend some time in Florida. And so you you tie in the different, you know, places and that feel of that South Florida feel. So you you've you've taken your own experiences, crafted a story which is just a page, page turner, all three. but yet as you've said, there is this deeper meaning

which it doesn't hit you in the face, but it is um truly moving. because we all have families and we all

Michael Caudo (19:05)
Yeah.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (19:05)
have experiences in our families. And so it's not an easy thing to do.

Um

Michael Caudo (19:10)
Well, thanks, Meg. I'm

I'm glad you had that experience. and as you touched on, the the the art theft is very real. It's the largest unsolved art art theft in in history. The paintings were factually in Philadelphia for a time. And I ran with that premise. A lot of writing is is is you you can start with a premise. What if? What if this? What if there was a guy and he ran a restaurant on Pashonk Avenue?

And he secretly housed these stolen paintings for all these years. Or maybe he didn't, and maybe people thought he did. And that was the pull that that brings the protagonist, the the son of this now deceased father, back to Philadelphia from uh from Florida to search for this uh lost or hidden painting, if if it even exists. But it's not.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (20:02)
How did you come

up with like when did when did this idea strike you? Was it you had an idea about writing about a guy in South Philly or did you yeah, I I'm curious of the process.

Michael Caudo (20:14)
It it started as, you know, a pretty a pretty generic, like I was interested in the actual the theft and the fact that the paintings were in Philly and I had a little bit of a real world, you know, experience with it in in the course of my law practice. And so I I guess I started out thinking I was gonna write this, you know, cool, high octane, fast pace, you know, James Bond esque type thriller. And and in some respects it is, but as I was writing it, you know

all all the emotion leaked out of me. And uh, you know, hopefully s the page caught some of it. I I think it did.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (20:49)
Mm-hmm.

You spoke you spoke your your truth. You you write you wrote your truth.

Michael Caudo (20:54)
y writing truth the reader's gonna suss you out. You don't have to be an expert in in uh ballistics or whatever it is that you're writing. You just gotta know enough to where it's not false. But i if you're gonna write about you know, emotions and relationships and and i if if if you're not writing your your truth the reader's gonna suss it out real quick. And and they'll forgive you for a lot, but I I

I don't believe uh that they they will or should uh you know forgive you for being dis purposely disingenuous and and and I hope I haven't. I know I haven't because you know I've I've certainly delved into things that I didn't know I was gonna delve into and and I I I found that that resonated the most with people and the most with people that you would think are the most unlikely for it to resonate with.

people that you would not think are readers. So it's also open up, you know, my eyes to to society and to I I hope I don't never judge anyone like that, but, you know, sometimes it's easy to judge people. You don't you don't know who who who is a a reader and a deep thinker just because they may carry themselves differently, superficially to get by in a world. Like let's face it, all of us do. I'm not saying everybody has to

walk around like a gushing wound, you know, twenty four hours a day. Um, but it it it's nice to touch into that part of people and to realize that other other people, you know, have those leanings and those feelings too. It's been a beautiful, beautiful thing and and I've I've met people that that through it and th some people that I knew I became closer to or discovered different aspects of them through the writing.

And and that's been that's the reward. That's the biggest reward, easily.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (22:45)
Right. I guess

that's the benefit of of writing a you know, a page turner mystery thriller that's got this deeper meaning, you it's a it's a vehicle. Right? The story is a vehicle to reveal that deeper meaning.

Michael Caudo (22:58)
Well ho

hopefully you sneak up on a reader and hit them over the head at the end and then and they don't realize that they've been duped in into reading a a love story. And and to uh you know, I I cite that in in I I I talk about in one of the chapters, I'm not giving anything away, that there's two characters in in the book they they have this connection over the movie Rocky. And, you know, one of the characters I I believe posits the notion that

Rocky's a love story. That that's why Rocky one resonated with people. Yeah, people love the fight scenes. But at at its heart and it it's about a man and a woman. That to me, that that's what Rocky was about and the deepest part the deepest part. Yeah, yeah, we have all those things and uh you

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (23:44)
Well, and the underdog, you know, there's yeah. Right.

Michael Caudo (23:48)
know, I said that the the one character's favorite part, and it's I guess is my f favorite part too, is

you know, that that Rocky and Mickey they were at odds because Mickey treated him not too nice and then he kinda came crawling back to him. And when Rocky forgave him and came out of the house and chased him down a street, to me that was the culmination of the movie. That's that was a fully realized story and a fully realized character and that's the scene where Rocky became a winner.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (24:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Talk to me about your process. and I I am very interested in a writer's life, the writing the writing life. you know, I you I've shared with you that I enjoy writing.

Michael Caudo (24:39)
Yes.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (24:39)
you can lose yourself in it. Right? You can

Michael Caudo (24:42)
Hopefully you do.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (24:42)
lose all sense of time, space. I I've if you if you like to write

and you um start putting words on paper, you you know if it's something that you're meant to do, regardless of whether or not you're ever gonna get published or even publish it or even allow anybody else ever to read it. But I'm curious of what what your typical writing day is like and do you write every day and that kind of thing.

Michael Caudo (25:11)
So you know, to your point, if it's writ if writing's not always gonna be easy. And if you're gonna stick around and wait to feel inspired, you're never gonna finish or you're never gonna start. And it's you know, people say, Well, there's this thing of writer's block. I mean, if a guy is a plumber and that's his career and he gets up in the morning, does he ever tell his wife I can't go to work today 'cause I got plumber's black or I got carpenter's black?

I mean, just sit down and start to do it. Easier said than done. Again, write

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (25:41)
Right.

Michael Caudo (25:41)
something ugly, write something stupid. But but at least you're writing. there there are times when I'm in the groove and I'm writing every day. Uh I wish that were the case and I hope that to be the case one day in my life. So right now I gotta steal my time. 'cause you know we gotta keep the lights on around here. And but when I find myself in the groove I will

I will write and I will stop sometimes in the middle of something good. So that when I go back and I pick it up and I then maybe read the last hundred or so words that I that I I wrote, I'm right back in a groove and I got somewhere to start from. So I'm not necessarily starting from a new chapter and starting fresh because I could pick right up.

Almost like making yourself stop even when you're still a little bit excited. Uh I I found that that works.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (26:36)
I see.

Michael Caudo (26:37)
I like to look five hundred pages a day will get you uh I I think five hundred pages a day. Uh I hope I got the math right. I'm a lawyer. that's why we went to law school.

Write five hundred words a day. Well, words. my god, five hundred words a day.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (26:52)
I was gonna say five hundred wait, five hundred pages a day. Words. I know. I was like,

wait a minute, that's

Michael Caudo (26:59)
Yeah.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (27:00)
you're awfully you're awfully good. So five

Michael Caudo (27:02)
Right. Yeah, no.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (27:03)
hundred words a day is what, a couple pages?

Michael Caudo (27:06)
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple of pages. eighty to ninety thousand words in case anyone wants to know that. And you know, you find yourself getting ten, twenty thousand words done down and you're like, huh, I could do this. You know? you start making the calculations in your mind and the percentages.

And and I do go back and edit a little bit as I'm going, but but I'm not a slave to it because I know I'm gonna edit hard at the end and I'm gonna send it out for independent editing. So I'm not too hung up on that. you know, but I I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (27:42)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Caudo (27:42)
would suggest don't start moving worrying about moving commas around and and and worrying about uh you know rules of of punctuation and such. You could always go back and clean that up.

so yeah, that's my process. Sometimes, you know, I listen to a little bit of music. You had mentioned the R and B influence. I do have two play three playlists on Spotify, one for each of the book w each of the books and they're yeah, they're either songs that are inspired by or mentioned and a lot of times the characters mention y you'll you'll find out that they're maybe playing a song on a jukebox and it kind of controls the mood. Uh

jukebox music looms large in the prodigal series. so sometimes I'll I'll accompany a little bit of music in the background. I kinda like that. Um and and I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (28:32)
Mm-hmm. I think music

is very inspiring. Yeah.

Michael Caudo (28:35)
It it's

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (28:36)
I'm fascinated with the seventies, so I'm always writing something that's set in the seventies.

Michael Caudo (28:43)
That's

pretty cool. You don't have to worry about all the technology a and and and having a battle

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (28:46)
Right, exactly. yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Michael Caudo (28:49)
with all that stuff. Uh so yeah, that's and

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (28:51)
Yeah. So

yeah, I mean I've read I've read that other authors like hold themselves up in a basement with no windows. personally I find it more inspiring to um to to be in a a place where I can see outside, but that's just me. I'm not published, so

Michael Caudo (29:05)
I I've changed. You know. I I did I did

sit in the dark and write and and I still do s

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (29:11)
Did ya?

Michael Caudo (29:12)
sometimes but but I could I could sit at a kitchen table on a Sunday with Sinatra on and and my wife cooking and uh you know you know making gravy. Yeah. And I you know, I could do it. I could

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (29:22)
And you're try you're transported right into a small Italian cafe.

Michael Caudo (29:26)
I I c I could write. I could c compartmentalize that. I have a little little glass of wine or a glass of bourbon and and then I then when I'm done

you know, I I I stop and uh and pick it up the next time. And and if you notice, I try to not really purposely, but you know, look, it's nobody wants a book that ends on a cliffhanger. But if you end your chapters on a cliffhanger, that's good. Because people will turn a page and go to the next chapter. So I find myself kinda naturally

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (29:54)
Okay. Okay.

Michael Caudo (29:55)
doing that. I kinda like to leave I write short chapters.

'Cause I I I that's just how how I do it and it's I think it keeps people's attention and I think it it it helps somebody to turn a page and say, Okay, I could do let me read one more chapter before I go to bed and hopefully you stay up all night.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (30:14)
Did

you share your writing with anyone as you were starting your first novel? The first in the series, Return.

Michael Caudo (30:22)
I did.

I I'm glad you mentioned that. And I I don't know if I but I I have to give credit to my wife. She was an excellent uh beta reader and and really read uh the especially the first book, you know, read as I wrote and would make, you know, suggestions or little corrections. And also, you know, I just wanted to bounce things off of her. So yeah, we really we experienced it together and it was it was a beautiful thing.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (30:50)
That's great. That's great. how long did the first in the trilogy take you? And did two and three take just as long or did they kind of did you get in the groove with the the characters by that point?

Michael Caudo (31:05)
let's see. Well the first book took about fifty four years to begin and then I but I finished in a in about one year. So that when when I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (31:12)
Got it. Understood. So

this was your this was your great American novel that you'd had percolating in your mind for a long time.

Michael Caudo (31:17)
But you know, it to be honest, probably like about

uh

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (31:27)
Okay.

Michael Caudo (31:28)
a year, uh uh

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (31:30)
So I

find that so so wonderful to hear, right? Because, you know, you and I are around the same age and um I I take it from what you're saying that this was really the first not that you never wrote before, but this was the first like larger piece that that you wrote. Is that r is that right? And and

Michael Caudo (31:50)
It it it is.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (31:51)
and and it's never too late. Not that we're not that we're that old, but

Michael Caudo (31:54)
God no. Um

I'm friends with an author in his that just started in his seventies, Kevin Barry O'Connor. I give him a shout out. Keith Kells series. Of course it's never too late. As long as you got breath in your body, you could do it. and I I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (32:10)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (32:11)
I did. I thought I was writing for a number of years because I would jot down these thoughts and and not that they weren't good, but you know, they they it lacked

follow up and and and stick to it. Uh uh so

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (32:26)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Caudo (32:27)
you know, you say to yourself, Well, I'm writing, I'm writing, I I wrote this little couple pages here. And and that's fine. Uh but yeah if it's if it's your intention to do that, I think you really you you have to sit down and say, Hey, I'm gonna do this and envision that that it's gonna be complete. So and so many people

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (32:46)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (32:46)
have come come up to me with writing dreams. That's the number one most common thing.

People have reached out to me and said, you know what, Mike? I always

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (32:53)
Yeah yeah.

Michael Caudo (32:54)
wanted to write a book. And I my I feel it's my job that if somebody really feels that way, to convince them, look, you can do this. It is not out of reach.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (33:03)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Caudo (33:04)
Don't do not feel shut out. Don't think this is some club that you can't be a part of. And I hope I've helped some

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (33:09)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (33:10)
people with that.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (33:12)
I think you have. I mean, you you've inspired me to continue writing for sure. I you know, I've dabbled over the years and had different ideas and started things and stopped them and yeah, I think it's I think you have and and that's that's wonderful too. Right? To have had that type of influence on even one person, let alone more than one, I

Michael Caudo (33:34)
Yeah.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (33:34)
think is is really inspiring and and impressive.

you but

Michael Caudo (33:41)
Yeah, I I

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (33:42)
you like you said, you need you need to make the time for it, right? Whether you're a morning person or a night owl or right, 'cause like 'cause everybody's got things going on. So you've got to make the time for it. And you have to have somebody in your life that's supportive of you taking the time for it. Yeah. It certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah.

Michael Caudo (33:57)
That helps. it's like anything else. Like going to

the gym or you know, f find that some people go in the morning, some people go at night. As long as you stick to it and and you you're okay it's okay if you fall off every once in a while. But just get back on.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (34:13)
But taking those real life experiences, like you said in the very beginning, you know, we're lawyers, so we're people watchers. We notice things about people and you know, there's there's opportunities. Um and I think you even say it, there's drama going on all around us. You just have to look up and take notice, right? There's opportunities all day long to um l think about interactions that you see between people and and how how you might use that because you've gotta, like you said, you've gotta

Write the truth, even if when you're writing fiction, or your reader the reader's gonna suss you out, they're gonna know that it's not genuine.

Michael Caudo (34:50)
It it's it's a way of synthesizing your experiences and making sense of the world and and and you know, perhaps rethinking them or re repackaging them in a different way. Uh and and it's you know, it's therapeutic in in that way. Uh and then oddly enough you start i it it almost has a reverse thing. You start to write these things and it's almost as if they're coming true in your real life and

You wonder, it's just you, it's the way that you're perceiving the world now. but it but it's a funny thing that you know, again, that that who knows where where life takes you, you know, stops, starts, left turns, right turns.

sometimes a book can be that way. Sometimes your life could be that way. that I've I've found similar similarities in both. So yeah, definitely take suck take everything in, take in the world. And and if if if it's something that you can't make sense of or something that hurts you or confuses you, great. Write about it. That's a good place to start.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (36:01)
Good

place to start. So you mentioned the beginning you're you're working on a new novel. Um

Michael Caudo (36:07)
Yes.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (36:07)
this is not part of the the trilogy, this is a totally different story. So

Michael Caudo (36:13)
It is.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (36:14)
two questions I have for you. First is uh for for those of us that liked reading about Nick, are we ever gonna see or hear from Nick again if you're able to say? And maybe you know, maybe you don't know.

Michael Caudo (36:24)
You you have not

you have not heard the last from Nick. In fact, I'm gonna send you a a confidential dossier a reporter from uh from an art uh paper recently caught up with Nick in Atlantic City and did an interview. So I'm gonna send that out to you. And if you're a reader Did I send you the dossier? Okay, good. That was it was originally

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (36:44)
We you you did send it to me. You you did send it to me, so I wanted to just uh you did. You did. You did.

Michael Caudo (36:51)
part of the

a gift package. You know, people were asking me, so I said maybe I'll write a little something just to keep keep the fires burning. So yeah, I am going to revisit pardon.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (37:00)
So with cr with Christmas coming up. Yeah,

with Christmas coming up, the trilogy is I would suggest would make a great gift for uh family and friends, right? A three

part so can you buy can you buy

Michael Caudo (37:14)
Sure. You can reach out to me anywhere.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (37:16)
it as a set?

Michael Caudo (37:17)
You could get it on Amazon. You could reach out to me on Instagram or Facebook. I I'll if you're local, I'll come and bring you I'll come and bring it to you. but you could order or or or uh you could order it on Amazon and Jeff Bezos will have it delivered to you real quick. so and and by the way, I should mention it's available in Kindle form, it is available in paperback.

And the first book, Return of the Prodigal, is available in audio at professionally narrated. And it's it's a treat if you like audio books. You could get that on Audible or Amazon. And you don't need you don't need any particular type of device to listen to it. You can listen to it in your car. It's pretty cool.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:00)
That's awesome. How did you go about doing that? Did you how

Michael Caudo (38:03)
I I hi

I hired a an A list narrator that worked with the big five.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:09)
wow.

Michael Caudo (38:10)
and so he he he did a really really good job. and it's yeah, people uh there there's you can do it now on on on Amazon, you know, through a a beta program where it's kinda like AI, which kind

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:25)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (38:26)
of kinda

Yeah, I'm a little ambivalent about I I'm not

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (38:29)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (38:30)
you know, I mean we all we can't stand in the way of it. We you know, it's useful for a lot of things. I don't I don't I don't appreciate it being used for creative endeavors i if you're going to maintain that it it's something that you created. I mean if if you disclose it, knock yourself out. But I just I I love look at our look at our talk that we had. I I mean I guess there's

I guess AI can repli replicate these type of thrillers, but don't you wanna know that there was another human, you know, with shedding tears and feeling the same feelings that you were feeling a and that th you have that connection with the writer? I do. and I think most people when they read literature, you know, they savor that. And hopefully that's preserved. I think it will be. And and I

Which is oddly enough, I my next novel I is is somewhat tied into uh to AI. AI is a theme in in the next book. It is a step away from the trilogy, momentarily. It's more of a domestic, suspense thriller with a tinge of the supernatural, but just a tinge. And there is an AI component. I I think I think you're gonna like it. I sent you a little advanced uh

I'll offer you interesting.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (39:48)
I did, I did. I didn't

know how much you wanted to get into that, but I did enjoy it very much. And wanna I I don't wanna give anything away. Why don't you tell our listeners what you want them to know at this juncture?

Michael Caudo (40:00)
Sure. I'll tell you as much as will

appear on the book jacket, which would be

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (40:05)
Okay, fair enough.

Michael Caudo (40:06)
uh that a a couple relocates to the suburbs to for a better life for their son. And uh husband is employed in a law related field that's connected to artificial intelligence and he finds himself out of a job because the AI model that he helped build has now made him replaceable.

so after moving to this, you know, more expensive home, he finds himself out of a job and with a lot of time on his hands and and feeling a little vengeful, and he finds his way up into the attic of the home that they moved into so quickly and discovers a journal. And this is the important part. the journal is presumably left there written by uh a person who's now dead, but was a more of a

more of a street guy than the main character in the book is. And as this person reads the journal of this gentleman, they become more and more influenced by it and they start to take on the some of the characteristics of this of this person. When the journal say yes, that's right. So you can imagine what happens

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (41:15)
Tommy boy's got a lot of time on his hands. Tommy boy's got a lot of time on his hands.

Michael Caudo (41:23)
all other characters discover their own items up in the attic. Uh hence the title is Things They Found in the Attic. And I think you're gonna love it. I guess look for it sometime in twenty twenty eight. I'm gonna need a little time. Yeah,

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (41:37)
Twenty twenty eight, yeah.

Michael Caudo (41:38)
I'm gonna need a little time with this one. Uh but it it's been

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (41:40)
Okay, that's okay.

Michael Caudo (41:43)
writing the journal parts have been very liberating because I could be very loose and and write as if just a uh

a generic uh person with no writing experience, who doesn't fancy themselves a writer, is just writing the language and the cadence of the streets. And it's been a real kick and it's written in the first person. I found myself the I there's only a very small portion of Redemption of the Prodigal written in first person and it's the epilogue of Redemption of the Prodigal. And it it just it felt so good I wanted to do it again.

And and I s I didn't want to write a whole novel in the first person. So the way I f the workaround was that the character discovers a journal and the journal's written in the first person. And it's nice because

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (42:29)
I like it.

Michael Caudo (42:30)
yeah, I switch off from third to first and it keeps me fresh and it keeps me going. And and I'm I'm really loving it so far.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (42:39)
That's great. That's great. Well, I can't wait to read more. Uh

Michael Caudo (42:42)
Actually.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (42:43)
we will anxiously await. We'll have to you'll have to perhaps come back on after it is completed, before it's published and we can talk more about it.

Michael Caudo (42:50)
I would love that. I'm looking forward to it. Give me something to look forward to. Yet another goal.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (42:55)
Yeah.

Michael Caudo (42:56)
I sh I should also mention that uh I'll give a shout out to Ducktown Tavern in Atlantic City. they're adding a a drink to the winter menu. it's it's a spin on the Negroni and it's inspired by the books. It's and

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (43:11)
Okay.

Michael Caudo (43:11)
it's called Nick's Alibi. So if if you y they use Alibi Gin.

so if you head over Yeah, if you head over to Duckdown Tavern, ask for Brian. There you go. That that would be great.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (43:18)
Outstanding, I love it. Well maybe what we'll do is we'll we we maybe what we'll do is we'll meet there next time.

Michael Caudo (43:28)
That would be a real kick. So I'll keep you posted about that. Uh

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (43:30)
Yeah. Please

do. Please stay in touch. I know you're back and forth down my way and and if we can meet up in person, I would love to do that. Um talk about, you know,

Michael Caudo (43:39)
Yeah, I'm gonna let's make that happen. Yep.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (43:42)
the writing life and you know every everything we've talked about today. And I think the the takeaway from me is um, you know, all of us, lawyers and non lawyers alike, finding your passion, writing your passion. it's it's a

It's it's why we're it's why we're here. It's what make the world what makes the world go round.

Michael Caudo (44:02)
Absolutely, whatever your passion may be, yeah, please embrace it. we're we're not here for a long time. So make it happen.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (44:09)
That's for sure. That's for sure. Michael, thank you very, very much. Uh we'll talk again soon. And hang

Michael Caudo (44:14)
Thanks, mate. I can't wait yet.

Meg McCormick Hoerner, Esquire (44:16)
tight while this hang tight while this uploads. Okay. I'll give you a call in a few minutes. Thank you.

Michael Caudo (44:20)
Okay. All

right, Matt.